The Captain

[apolinar]

So who made the decison to sit brindy. Coach or JR. Because whoever did finally listened to me from my statements last year. It essentially is worse than what I suggested. (Stripping the C). And the ability to bring up more young guys. Carson shoulda been with this team from the beginning.

Now with hindsight out of the way, gutsy win and the effort in the end was so different than ever. Like the guys had a reason to win. And I truly hope that effort came from them wanting their captain on the bench.

[ButtersSaysNo]

So who made the decison to sit brindy. Coach or JR. Because whoever did finally listened to me from my statements last year. It essentially is worse than what I suggested. (Stripping the C). And the ability to bring up more young guys. Carson shoulda been with this team from the beginning.

Now with hindsight out of the way, gutsy win and the effort in the end was so different than ever. Like the guys had a reason to win. And I truly hope that effort came from them wanting their captain on the bench.

I seriously doubt that and you don't want that to be the case because then this team has some serious serious locker room issues as well. They may already exist, but you should not truly hope that is the reason.

[evan]

Brind'Amour scratch = 1st road win

Coincidence??? I think not.

I will first state that Rod Brind'Amour has had a fantastic career, and has made immeasurable contributions to our organization. He was the MVP of our Cup run, and should've won the Conn Smythe...

However, there's no question that this move was long, long over-due. It has been obvious for two years now that Rod is neither the player nor the leader of this team that he used to be. It appears that when he isn't playing the way he's expected to, he cannot hold the rest of the team accountable for their shortcomings. Plus, the team plays better without him, and has for two years. If our organization wasn't scared to death to hurt someone's feelings or be labeled as disloyal, this situation would've been handled a long time ago. Performance can decline quickly after 35, and this process was likely hastened by the major knee injury Rod suffered. I understand that Rod has too much pride and confidence in himself to give up the C or retire, and that's why the coaching staff and management has to step in in these situations. It all goes back to the lack of accountability that exists in this organization. It's too bad that our season is already too far gone before significant action was taken on this front or any other. So actually, I am not blaming Brind'Amour for this mess, but rather our incompetent management and coaching staff.

I agree. The team has played much better without Rod in the lineup for the last couple of seasons. I remember most of our stretch run last year, he was out of the lineup and I thought Staal really emerged as a great on-ice leader. I don't think we could've won last night's game (it being a one-goal game, especially) with Brindy getting his ice time while we were holding off the Pens in the 3rd.

[nccanes]

I remember most of our stretch run last year, he was out of the lineup

Brind'Amour missed TWO games last year, in February.

[Canesluver]

Thank you! ^

[nccanes]

Thank you! ^

Brind'Amour's got enough warranted criticism coming his way, he doesn't need revisionist history as well, dontcha think?:kiss:

[KaniacFever]

I agree. The team has played much better without Rod in the lineup for the last couple of seasons. I remember most of our stretch run last year, he was out of the lineup and I thought Staal really emerged as a great on-ice leader. I don't think we could've won last night's game (it being a one-goal game, especially) with Brindy getting his ice time while we were holding off the Pens in the 3rd.

I think you mean 2 years ago when Brindy injured the knee. That was when Staal put the team on his back, but they missed the playoffs by 1 measly point cause they couldn't finish off Florida.

[SoCalcaniac]

I think we're gettng this whole Rod benched thing in a semi kerfuffle. E's right, Rod was out of the lineup for a couple of game last year, it's the year before that we're confusing things with. I thought Rod recovered from the disastrous start and finished far better than I imagined he would, so last night it appears without Rod, this team did well. If this is going to be continuous, (Rod in the PB) then show me more for a stretch.

I'm feeling, after reading today's N&O and DeCock's column, that we're going down that Dave Andreychuk slippery slope, but that's just me. (i.e. squeeze out and retire, but thanks for coming) I thought Andreychuk deserved better, and it appears he's patched it up with the Lightning, but even still..........

Brind'Amour's got enough warranted criticism coming his way, he doesn't need revisionist history as well, dontcha think?:kiss: <!-- / message --> <!-- controls -->
LMAO @ E coming to Rod's rescue! here, here!

[caneshockeychick]

II'm feeling, after reading today's N&O and DeCock's column, that we're going down that Dave Andreychuk slippery slope, but that's just me. (i.e. squeeze out and retire, but thanks for coming) I thought Andreychuk deserved better, and it appears he's patched it up with the Lightning, but even still..........

yeah, a friend and I were talking about this last night, Andreychuk that is. I didn't like it then and I wouldn't like it for Brind'Amour now. But...then again, you do wonder. I just want our captain to "get it back." :(

[apolinar]

I seriously doubt that and you don't want that to be the case because then this team has some serious serious locker room issues as well. They may already exist, but you should not truly hope that is the reason.
Why not? I want these guys to have SOME reason to win this year. And I don't think it's a question anymore that this team already had some serious lockerroom issues with the talent on the ice and the losses and Ruutu crying and A. Ward barking at other defensemen. So I feel there already are lockerroom issues, and this may be one way to solidify the team, if that's why they did it. But if not and they are putting Rod out to pasture, OUCH. (Agreeing with the Andreychuck treatment... but this is the canes with forgiveness out the wazoo from JR)

[c-girl]

Forslund made an interesting comment on 99.9 at 5:40 last night. About the Brindy scratch, he said that some of the guys were confused, some were upset, but for others "life goes on." After hearing that, I was afraid the team was going to be in chaos for the game but fortunately they actually played as a team for a change rather than a bunch of individuals out there.

ETA: From wral.com, an article by Joe Ovies from a Forslund interview this morning (which I haven't listened to yet):


Canes television play-by-play voice John Forslund told Adam Gold (http://www.wralsportsfan.com/hurricanes/story/6571921/#) and Joe Ovies on 620 The Buzz that Brind'Amour was surprised by the news.

"We all know is role has been diminished, his ice time has been diminished, but [Brind'Amour] took it hard and his teammates took it hard," said Forslund.

What is the organization's ultimate end-game for Brind'Amour's situation? Whatever it is, Forslund believes it should be addressed soon and not left hanging out there.

"Unless there is an injury coming out of the game last night, I don't see how [Brind'Amour] goes back in tomorrow night."

[ontheboards]

I wish we had a Brind'Amour thread...

[livinthedream]

First, his ice time was reduced, and now that he's been scratched and the team in his absence assembled a pretty solid effort against the defending Stanley Cup Champions, what happens next?

Mods feel free to move any of the previous discussion items here as appropriate.

Re-posting c-girl's link to Forslund's interview with Joe Ovies (http://www.wralsportsfan.com/hurricanes/story/6571921/#) from this morning in case folks look here first, because his comments are substantial.

Canes television play-by-play voice John Forslund told Adam Gold and Joe Ovies on 620 The Buzz that Brind'Amour was surprised by the news.

"We all know is role has been diminished, his ice time has been diminished, but [Brind'Amour] took it hard and his teammates took it hard," said Forslund.

What is the organization's ultimate end-game for Brind'Amour's situation? Whatever it is, Forslund believes it should be addressed soon and not left hanging out there.

"Unless there is an injury coming out of the game last night, I don't see how [Brind'Amour] goes back in tomorrow night."

[livinthedream]

I just created one. Mods feel free to move stuff over as appropriate, in the meantime there's a place to continue discussion.

[SoCalcaniac]

Yep we need a Rod thread- Puck it, can you move all this convo into a Rod thread?

c-girl, thanks for reminding me JF comes on in the morning after games and posting that bit. I heard JF on the 5:40 preshow thing, and when he said that his teammates took it hard, I was a kind of blown back, because I hadn't "thought' of it in that way. :(

This really is a new low. Because really, what's next here?

Going to go listen to the audio from JF....

[SC06]

Why not? I want these guys to have SOME reason to win this year. And I don't think it's a question anymore that this team already had some serious lockerroom issues with the talent on the ice and the losses and Ruutu crying and A. Ward barking at other defensemen. So I feel there already are lockerroom issues, and this may be one way to solidify the team, if that's why they did it. But if not and they are putting Rod out to pasture, OUCH. (Agreeing with the Andreychuck treatment... but this is the canes with forgiveness out the wazoo from JR)

Butters misunderstood your original post. He would have corrected it himself but he is stuck in a meeting and functioning through text messages right now.

[Captain Slack]

This whole situation reminds me of Andrechuk in Tampa & LeClair in Pittsburgh back in '05. That didn't end will for the player in question. :(

[livinthedream]

This situation is just... very sad.

:(

[puck_it]

I just created one. Mods feel free to move stuff over as appropriate, in the meantime there's a place to continue discussion.

thanks for the permission

[livinthedream]

You're welcome. Anytime. :D

[SoCalcaniac]

I just got to listen to the JF interview. Something about hearing it and not just reading the Ovies write up, gives you more of an insiders take of the situation. I chuckled when Forslund admitted he was upset about it. I could tell that yesterday when he was on with David Glenn and then at 5:40 with MM, but he admitted it out loud which I thought was very Forslund.

Hub was so shocked that Tripp did not do what we were predicting when the Rod-is-scratched news hit yesterday. But he has theories on it why Tripp didn't go on and on about it, 1) JF probably said let's not go there 2) He felt Tripp might have been too emotional about it and thought better of it so not to say anything "dumb" or would get him in trouble. :lol: and 3) he's in complete denial and thinks it'll all work out, and he'd be back in the lineup in NJ.

Is the end game here? How does one gracefully give the boot to the Captain that lead this organization out of irrelevance and to a championship?

I'll agree with Adam Gold (omg, shoot me) in that, usually they'll find a faux injury (interesting they discussed that lame-O Pat Quinn move on Ronnie in TO --- the press box in the playoffs deal) to cover up a scratch to a captain or player of #17's stature and they chose not to do that.

[JohnH]

this is the canes with forgiveness out the wazoo from JR)

Didn't Primeau keep the C for several months into his salary holdout? That's how long it took for them to take it away from a guy who <b>didn't</b> want to be there.

[KaniacFever]

I think if a player isn't getting their own message from their body, then it is the teams responsibility to step in and do something about it. It seems harsh but I don't know if there was an easier way to do this.

I feel bad for Brindy no doubt. I will always remember him for what he did for this organization and helping bring Lord Stanley to the Carolinas. I hope there is a median the team and Brindy can decide on. As much as I like Brindy and respect the guy, I do think his time is done. And I will for sure be there when #17 is raised to the rafters.

[ButtersSaysNo]

Why not? I want these guys to have SOME reason to win this year. And I don't think it's a question anymore that this team already had some serious lockerroom issues with the talent on the ice and the losses and Ruutu crying and A. Ward barking at other defensemen. So I feel there already are lockerroom issues, and this may be one way to solidify the team, if that's why they did it. But if not and they are putting Rod out to pasture, OUCH. (Agreeing with the Andreychuck treatment... but this is the canes with forgiveness out the wazoo from JR)

I misunderstood you. I was reading your quote in between 2 meetings and obviously was lacking in my reading comprehension.

Maybe last night wakes up this team for once this season.

Every player makes mistakes and is a liability at times. I thought Brindy had some key plays on the PK vs Van and played well overall.

All I know is the organization better not take a big doo doo on Brindy.

[caneshockeychick]

A friend asked me a ? about Brind'Amour and I said this:

Brindy, Brindy, Brindy,....I don't know. I don't want him "kicked out" I don't want him embarrassed. But, in regards to what else we have on the ice, they are better at this time. Its hard. He's "the man" He's our captain and I swear, even though Ward was great in goal in 2006, I think Brindy led that team.

Problem is, I don't think he's leading anymore. I don't know why. I think there's that whole, Staal is our franchise thingie going on and maybe that's causing some issues, problems. Maybe staal is playing leader. I don't know. We never hear from Brind'Amour. At least I haven't.

I'd love for him to get back to being "The" Brind'Amour. I just don't know if he can. :(

[lovereign]

Its kinda reminds me of Mystery Alaska when they tell Russell Crowe that he has been taken off the Saturday game for a younger Stevie Weeks...However, this is real life.

[SoCalcaniac]

lovereign, great job on the Mystery Alaska reference! Love that movie.

CHC- I think deep down, most people will say they feel similarly to how you do about the current state. and I'm like you, falling back to what used to be with #17, vs what our situation is right now. That's what is really tough. :(

[ButtersSaysNo]

Maybe Brindy and Mo do not get along? Maybe Mo started this yr off wrong, by the way he handled some team leadership things in the locker room. I don't know, but something sure seems amiss. I honestly thought Brindy came more out of his shell with Lavi as the coach and IMO has seemed to go back into it ever since Mo is back.

[SC06]

The whole thing about Brind'amour this year puzzles me. Through the debacle we have been through so far he seems to have been invisible as the team leader in the public's eye. I know he is the TEAM leader, but as a leader in the organization he has been invisible outside the locker room. I can understand that he is surely frustrated and struggling with his play as well as trying to find answers, but he is the C. Shouldn't he be the one in front of the microphones trying to get us all through this?

He is my favorite player and I don't want to see him squeezed out against his will. I wish he would relinquish the C for his own good. Maybe it would change his mindset and get him back in the game.

[livinthedream]

JR weighs in (http://blogs.newsobserver.com/canes/rutherford-no-major-decision-on-brindamour)

Canes general manager Jim Rutherford said today that the decision to make Rod Brind'Amour a healthy scratch would be made on a game-to-game basis and that no far-reaching decisions — such as Brind'Amour giving up the captaincy or possibly retiring -- had been discussed.

Brind'Amour was a healthy scratch Monday for the Pittsburgh Penguins game, a first for the team captain since coming to Carolina in January 2000. The Canes won 3-2, and Brind'Amour may be a healthy extra again Wednesday when the Canes face the New Jersey Devils.

"There have been no discussions on any change in his status," Rutherford said. "When a player like Rod is not in the lineup, it's an issue and people talk about it, but we will take it one game, one week at a time.

"It's a tough time in a player's career, and possibly a Hall of Fame career, when a player does not play every game. At some point in the not-too-distant future, he and I will talk about it. ... At some point we will have a discussion about what this means and how Rod is handling it and dealing with it."

Brind'Amour is minus-19 for the season and has just two goals and six assists. He has one year left after this season on a contract that will pay him $3 million.

"I have known Rod for a long time and have al ot of respect for him," Rutherford said. "I do not know where this is going.

"We'll have to see over time, if this is the way it keeps going and he's not playing. It's a tough time."

[nccanes]

Standard "who knows" disclaimer, but I'd be shocked if Brindy and Mo had real issues (I presume he is struggling with his diminished role, he's always said he plays better the more minutes he plays).

Brind'Amour has always said he respected he has for Mo, when he left, and when he was rehired. He said "I know he's a great coach" after the rehire. I don't expect anyone to dis their new coach, but you don't have to use those words either.

I just think everything is easier when you are playing better, as a team, and as an individual. I bet nothing seems easy for Rod now.

FWIW - Brind'Amour didn't have much to say when things were going poorly last season either (even before the firing) I remember us discussing it.

[ButtersSaysNo]

JR pisses me off. We all know that when it involves a captain of a team sitting, that the GM has some say, but IMO his comments should reflect that the coaches will handle the situation on a game to game basis, not we. It was probably his decision and he needs to man up a say it was my decision or it was a coaches decision. I do not like the "we." JF mentioned last week or so that the whole captain issue should have been resolved prior to the season, not during, and this is exactly what is going to happen. It is now going to become more and more of a discussion point even if nothing happens in regards to the "C" until the off-season. JR screwed this up IMO beginning with some of his comments about Brindy during the off-season.

Sharks took away the C from Marleau over the off-season and he is playing great with that pressure of his back.

I really wish JR would have handled this better/prior to season. I am so sick and tired of JR, this whole thing just adds to it.

FU JR!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[nccanes]

Interesting. Nothing in reading that article created a negative reaction for me.

I just think it's not easy to predict the future. And it's even harder when it involves people you respect a great deal. I am certain that there's not anyone that wanted Rod to have a great year more than JR - and not just because of the impact on the team, but for Rod himself. I'm certain JR would love for Rod to ride off into the N Raleigh sunset with nothing tarnishing his last few years. Let's remember - Steve Yzerman had a respected career even after his knee was put back together using some surgery that had never been performed on a pro athlete (iirc) - Rod had a knee injury, but not one that he shouldn't have been able to eventually overcome.

It's also conceivable that whomever would be next in line (presumably Staal) would not have been comfortable with getting it this summer.

I think sometimes being on the outside looking in makes everything much more black and white than it is.

[e2ipiand1]

Brindy was a Huge reason why we won in 2006.
I can remember several times when we desperately needed a goal and Brindy would get this ultra-determined look on his face and somehow get that goal scored.

[ButtersSaysNo]

Interesting. Nothing in reading that article created a negative reaction for me.

I just think it's not easy to predict the future. And it's even harder when it involves people you respect a great deal. I am certain that there's not anyone that wanted Rod to have a great year more than JR - and not just because of the impact on the team, but for Rod himself. I'm certain JR would love for Rod to ride off into the N Raleigh sunset with nothing tarnishing his last few years. Let's remember - Steve Yzerman had a respected career even after his knee was put back together using some surgery that had never been performed on a pro athlete (iirc) - Rod had a knee injury, but not one that he shouldn't have been able to eventually overcome.

It's also conceivable that whomever would be next in line (presumably Staal) would not have been comfortable with getting it this summer.

I think sometimes being on the outside looking in makes everything much more black and white than it is.

I am just fed up with JR, so he cannot say or do much that is going to sit well with me right now. He is the one consistent in what is currently the 12th season on the ice. During that time, 3 significant playoff runs, 2 other 1st round punts and what will be likely be the 7th time missing the playoffs. Yes, he has done some great things, but when you look at the big picture he has had as many misses as hits, other then Cam, Staal and likely Sutter and hopefully Boychuk has screwed the pooch big time in regards to first round picks (which I realize is a crap shoot in many respects). I am just ready for JR to go.

[Canesluver]

Were you really that ticked-off by the use of the word, "we?" I don't get it, either.

I've been married 23 years and I use the word, "we" lots of times when I really mean, "me"-- just 'cause I'm thinking of our "organization" (if you will) as a team.

<shrug>

[KaniacFever]

Brindy was a Huge reason why we won in 2006.
I can remember several times when we desperately needed a goal and Brindy would get this ultra-determined look on his face and somehow get that goal scored.

Sadly we haven't seen that ultra-determined look from him in the past year :(

I just feel bad for Brindy. Of course when things are going as bad as they are now, its the older captain getting looked at. And all the questions arise, 'why isn't Staal captain' etc. If anyone knows Brindy, you know his less than stellar play is weighing on him hugely and i'm sure all these questioning who the leader is is not helping much.

I hope JR/Brindy do sit down soon and talk. Maybe there is something for him to still do with the team and be a part of the team. I just think the 'playing' for him is long gone and I really wanted him to get back to him and go out on a high note.

[BrooklynCaniac]

I hope this dosen't wind up like the John Laclair situation in Pittsburgh a few years ago. Everyone looked bad.

[ButtersSaysNo]

Were you really that ticked-off by the use of the word, "we?" I don't get it, either.

I've been married 23 years and I use the word, "we" lots of times when I really mean, "me"-- just 'cause I'm thinking of our "organization" (if you will) as a team.

<shrug>


Yes, because "we" i.e., JR, should have resolved this in off-season. His comments after last season were to the regard that Brindy would have to compete for playing time, which is expected and fair, but when as GM you are making comments to the press that a team captain has to compete for their spot in lineup, there is an issue that needs to be handled sooner then later. A team captain should not be someone that has to "compete" for playing time because it should be a given they are still going to have a significant role on the team. I know JR was hoping for the best, but I don't think he expected things to work or he would never had made those off-season comments. This is going to get ugly and end with egg on the face of the organization and Brindy. Just my opinions and folks have the right to agree or disagree. I am going to try to have this be my last comment in regards to this matter because I am sure I am only going to get more fired up.

[SoCalcaniac]

I think the Andreychuk situation was just as bad but neither were good.

On the "we" reference, I'll agree with CL, I often use "we" when I mean me, when it comes to hub, and if it is I that screws up or does something ill advised, he gets to take the fall. :lol:;)

What I found irksome from JR's comments and can understand Butters frustration is that JR sounds wishy-washy to me, when he says in one breath "we'll see over time where this goes" and then he says "we will talk in the not so distant future" ok so when? I think JR has always been a pretty plain spoken dude. He may not babble every detail into the press, but when he does talk to the press, he'll be very pointed in his comments.

I know this is all up to 'them' the coaches, the GM whatever, but from a PR perspective, and if you really "respect" #17 like you say you do, it seems to me, that it would make sense, to have some type of conversation with the man.

[ButtersSaysNo]

I think the Andreychuk situation was just as bad but neither were good.

On the "we" reference, I'll agree with CL, I often use "we" when I mean me, when it comes to hub, and if it is I that screws up or does something ill advised, he gets to take the fall. :lol:;)

What I found irksome from JR's comments and can understand Butters frustration is that JR sounds wishy-washy to me, when he says in one breath "we'll see over time where this goes" and then he says "we will talk in the not so distant future" ok so when? I think JR has always been a pretty plain spoken dude. He may not babble every detail into the press, but when he does talk to the press, he'll be very pointed in his comments.

I know this is all up to 'them' the coaches, the GM whatever, but from a PR perspective, and if you really "respect" #17 like you say you do, it seems to me, that it would make sense, to have some type of conversation with the man.

before he is a healthy scratch, not after. Ok, now I am done....I think. LOL

[livinthedream]

So... for the last couple of days I've been holed up in the home office working on some projects (and bouncing back and forth to the local boards and news sources when I need a break), but I'm kind of isolated from the outside world. Brindy's a pretty big name around the league. What's being said outside of our market about this situation? Anyone talking about it? Or are we insignificant enough this season for this not to garner a lot of attention so far?

Just curious...

[nccanes]

Yes, because "we" i.e., JR, should have resolved this in off-season. His comments after last season were to the regard that Brindy would have to compete for playing time, which is expected and fair, but when as GM you are making comments to the press that a team captain has to compete for their spot in lineup, there is an issue that needs to be handled sooner then later. A team captain should not be someone that has to "compete" for playing time because it should be a given they are still going to have a significant role on the team. I know JR was hoping for the best, but I don't think he expected things to work or he would never had made those off-season comments. This is going to get ugly and end with egg on the face of the organization and Brindy. Just my opinions and folks have the right to agree or disagree. I am going to try to have this be my last comment in regards to this matter because I am sure I am only going to get more fired up.

Just remember that all remarks you are referring to were in reference to a question asked. I don't think JR called a press conf to address Brind'Amour's role this season. Brind'Amour's +/- was the elephant in the living room last year, but he still Captained (at least as the guy with the "C") a team to the ECF and was 4th in scoring. I truly don't believe that anyone could have predicted this to unfold the way it has or for the team or #17.

I believe there is a way that it won't "get ugly", but it remains to be seen if that happens.

[apolinar]

I'm going back to an old post I made. Way long ago. Super long ago. before the stanley cup ago. Brindy doesn't like playing under Ronnie Francis. This is guess and conjecture. But chemistry wise there was a problem with him playing under his shadow for so long when he was ready to captain the team. Bring Ronnie back as a coach and he is above him again.

Regardless if Brindy weren't captain and were just a junior from albany he would have stayed with the rats the last 2 years the way he's been playing. All of his positives were gone. Faceoff percentage, playmaking, and let's face it... leading. If JR made this decision, or if it was a "we" decision, to me it was unfortunately the right decision. You put him back in the lineup and he's back playing the way he did then it was the right decision. Too much in his head the last 2 years and this might shake him up. But like I said this is WAY more drastic than stripping the C which shoulda happened last year to hopefully light his ass up again. If we woulda lost yesterday I could be more angry about it but they won. And played as a team. Without him. Thus I hope they gelled as a team around their captain. If not... oh ohhhh.

[FinFan]

There are flashes of the "old" Rod on the ice at times. I saw it in the Vancouver game. But he's not on the ice as much, gets tired faster, seemingly, and seems more... cautious. With the fact that this has been happening steadily over the last two years, you have to wonder if his knee really didn't heal well. It's not like he's a 20-yr. old kid who can bounce back from ACL surgery. Yes, he's extremely fit, but even that can be a detriment when rehabbing this type of injury. I don't know if it is because he's trying to prevent it from happening again or it really isn't fully healed. Maybe it's both. It's just gotten so into his head that he doesn't skate like normal.

And because he's not skating up to par could be the reason why everyone else (that hasn't gotten frequent flier miles to/from Albany) isn't giving their all for 60 min. It's been the Baby Canes (the few we have) that have played the best this year. Sutter, Harrison, Rodney... these kids are out skating and out playing the old men.

[Alicia]

Interesting. Nothing in reading that article created a negative reaction for me.

I just think it's not easy to predict the future. And it's even harder when it involves people you respect a great deal. I am certain that there's not anyone that wanted Rod to have a great year more than JR - and not just because of the impact on the team, but for Rod himself. I'm certain JR would love for Rod to ride off into the N Raleigh sunset with nothing tarnishing his last few years. Let's remember - Steve Yzerman had a respected career even after his knee was put back together using some surgery that had never been performed on a pro athlete (iirc) - Rod had a knee injury, but not one that he shouldn't have been able to eventually overcome.

It's also conceivable that whomever would be next in line (presumably Staal) would not have been comfortable with getting it this summer.

I think sometimes being on the outside looking in makes everything much more black and white than it is.
Why bother making a public statement, though, if all you're really saying is "I/we don't know"? That's my dilemma...

[FinFan]

Chip just posted quotes from Mo about the Brind'Amour decision.

Canes coach Paul Maurice said benching Rod Brind'Amour on Monday was a "hockey decision" and was not based on any permanent or long-range plans for the team captain.

And despite Manny Legace being the winning goaltender in the last two games, Maurice said the Canes would stick to the plan to start Cam Ward on Wednesday against the New Jersey Devils.

"It's never easy to sit out any player," Maurice said before today's practice. "You ask your players to prepare physically and mentally for games, and at no point has anyone said, 'Roddy's not doing that.' He does everything he can to prepare.

"Jussi (Jokinen) was ready to go and get back in the lineup. We had a pool of two or three candidates of who might come out. But it's not like a decision was made Roddy's coming out the rest of the year."

Maurice noted that Stephane Yelle and Tom Kostopoulos had played well in recent games and that Scott Walker was healthy again. With Brandon Sutter a fixture in the lineup, the Canes had 13 healthy forwards for Monday's game.

"It's the first time since Sutter's been in the lineup that we've had everyone healthy and had to take someone out," Maurice said. "It was strictly a hockey decision, in one game."

Maurice said there were some bumps and bruises from the Pens game and that he was not sure about the lineup for the Devils. Except Ward in goal, that is.


So, what exactly does "hockey decision" mean? Other than "let's play everyone who has better numbers and maybe we'll get a win".

[SoCalcaniac]

Brindy's a pretty big name around the league. What's being said outside of our market about this situation? Anyone talking about it? Or are we insignificant enough this season for this not to garner a lot of attention so far?

Just curious...

Plenty of attention, we're talked about daily on most of these shows mostly in the head shaking can't believe they're in this situation fashion. He was the topic at the start of NHL live today at Noon with Rob Simpson & Stan Fischler, and then they had Kevin Allen on from USA and dragged him into the conversation, & he was being discussed this morning on the War Room, XM 204 and then again on Boomer's show The Point @ 2pm; and it's in the Twittersphere there have been back and forth conversations among fans and various blogger types with followings (Spectors, James Mirtle etc) all wondering out loud what's happened and WWRD? So there's a conversation that has been going on all day.

99.9 tweeted that A Ward is back on the air with his weekly show:

Today on the Insiders - Aaron Ward weighs in on the Canes' captain debate @ 4:25That should be interesting.

[caniac369]

Original posted by apolinar:

I'm going back to an old post I made. Way long ago. Super long ago. before the stanley cup ago. Brindy doesn't like playing under Ronnie Francis. This is guess and conjecture. But chemistry wise there was a problem with him playing under his shadow for so long when he was ready to captain the team. Bring Ronnie back as a coach and he is above him again.

I concure.

I've been thinking about this... a lot. My position on this is the same as any other issue: do what needs to be done to get this team to win. Period. As much as I would love to be able to see brindy play in person (perhaps one last time) this season, if it's not working it's not working. This was the man we saw cry tears of joy as he lifted the cup and was a key component of what got us there. Just like it hurt to see O leave in the middle of training camp last year, there was more of a sentimental reason for the hurt and really wanting the guy to have another shot.

I'm not saying JR knows all (I think Mo AND JR must go, but that's another thread...) but I want to see done what needs to be done and see if maybe, MAYBE, we can start to make up some ground in the points race...

[IceSun]

OK, I think I've got it figured out

1) TNOC moves to assistant GM so he & JR can continue the family experience (backup plan = TNOC replaces Tripp)

2) Brindy becomes coach thus keeping his salary intact overall, but pulling it out of cap calculations

3) Francis stays assistant coach so that to Art's point, Brindy doesn't have to report to him

4) Tripp and Pete F switch jobs to institute new "groin-training" regimen while bringing a new, yet familiar face to color commentary

[aldamon]

I think he's untradeable, but would Rod want to finish his career in Philly under Lavi? I doubt it but I thought I'd throw that out there.

[nccanes]

Why bother making a public statement, though, if all you're really saying is "I/we don't know"? That's my dilemma...

A, I could be way off base, but I always think that the N/O is gonna call up and ask for comments or to answer some questions and JR obliges. I think if Chip were to publish "JR has no comment" that that too, has the potential to hold some hidden meaning.

But I'm just pulling **** outta thin air.

[Jay]

I think he's untradeable, but would Rod want to finish his career in Philly under Lavi? I doubt it but I thought I'd throw that out there.

At this point, a team would be absolutely *bananas* to pick up Brindy.

[cmw00]

At this point, a team would be absolutely *bananas* to pick up Brindy.

Which is why I don't get the complaints about him being benched.

[SoCalcaniac]

I don't think anyone is complaining about the scratch of #17, I'm pretty sure we all know Rod's not even in the ballpark of where he needs to be.

I think folks are mindful and sensitive to this situation -because of what he has done for this org and who he is; this isn't some fringe player about to ride off into the sunset; but on the flip side, there are a ton of people who have completely forgot what exactly he has done for this team, and they can give a crap about it, and have moved on down the road; in the what have you done for me lately, not much so beat it, camp.

I'd like to think more people remember than have forgotten so quickly.

[ButtersSaysNo]

I don't think anyone is complaining about the scratch of #17, I'm pretty sure we all know Rod's not even in the ballpark of where he needs to be.

I think folks are mindful and sensitive to this situation -because of what he has done for this org and who he is; this isn't some fringe player about to ride off into the sunset; but on the flip side, there are a ton of people who have completely forgot what exactly he has done for this team, and they can give a crap about it, and have moved on down the road; in the what have you done for me lately, not much so beat it, camp.

I'd like to think more people remember than have forgotten so quickly.

THIS!

[cmw00]

So because somebody has done so much for the team in the past they should be played over people who can contribute more in the here and now, no matter how bad the player of the past is currently playing?

[Jay]

Which is why I don't get the complaints about him being benched.

I didn't complain once about it ... but I was nearly speechless when I heard. It's pretty shocking to see so obviously that it's gotten that far.

[nccanes]

So because somebody has done so much for the team in the past they should be played over people who can contribute more in the here and now, no matter how bad the player of the past is currently playing?

Who said that?

[cmw00]

Who said that?

Nobody specifically, just seems that some people around the net imply that he should play for whatever reason. Or maybe I'm misunderstanding people which is always a likely possibility.

[JohnH]

Maybe at least part of this is a motivational message to the rest of the team:

"If the Captain can be benched, so can you."

John, just thinkin'...

[nccanes]

Maybe at least part of this is a motivational message to the rest of the team:

"If the Captain can be benched, so can you."

John, just thinkin'...

From Mo:

"Jussi (Jokinen) was ready to go and get back in the lineup. We had a pool of two or three candidates of who might come out. But it's not like a decision was made Roddy's coming out the rest of the year."

[evan]

Brind'Amour's got enough warranted criticism coming his way, he doesn't need revisionist history as well, dontcha think?:kiss:

Maybe I'm thinking of something else? Sorry about that.

[evan]

I do think it would be nice if JR and Brind'Amour sat down and maybe decided it was time to pass the torch to the next captain (Staal? Gleason? Ruutu?). Roddy could be an alternate (assuming they even want to play him). Maybe he'd play better without the pressure to perform for the C, it worked for Marleau in San Jose.

[SouthernHockeyChick]

Which is why I don't get the complaints about him being benched.

...........

So because somebody has done so much for the team in the past they should be played over people who can contribute more in the here and now, no matter how bad the player of the past is currently playing?

I admit I was lurking around here while I was working today so, not 100% attention paid, but hell if I've seen one single person on this board complain about the scratch or say it wasn't necessary. :crazy:

I totally understand it. I know it had to be done. But I was pretty f*cking thankful that Tampa wasn't my team when they tried to make Andreychuk disappear and I was pissed as hell at the Pens when they waived Recchi and when John LeClair was just allowed to fade off into the sunset. I did not want to be associated with an organization that humiliated, IMO, such fantastic and storied players for their respective teams as those guys.

Now, my team is in a situation where it would be in the best interests of the team to do just that to someone who I worshipped the ground he walked on a short 3 years ago. Everyone will have to excuse me if I'm not jumping for joy to see it happen.

It's a sad shame that it has come to this. I NEVER wished this for Brindy. But it is what it is. I hope we can continue to have a fanbase who sees the ugliness in something like this and isn't partying over seeing the man who led us to a Stanley Cup sitting in the pressbox, no matter how badly he's playing.

[Solracer]

I admit I was lurking around here while I was working today so, not 100% attention paid, but hell if I've seen one single person on this board complain about the scratch or say it wasn't necessary. :crazy:

I totally understand it. I know it had to be done. But I was pretty f*cking thankful that Tampa wasn't my team when they tried to make Andreychuk disappear and I was pissed as hell at the Pens when they waived Recchi and when John LeClair was just allowed to fade off into the sunset. I did not want to be associated with an organization that humiliated, IMO, such fantastic and storied players for their respective teams as those guys.

Now, my team is in a situation where it would be in the best interests of the team to do just that to someone who I worshipped the ground he walked on a short 3 years ago. Everyone will have to excuse me if I'm not jumping for joy to see it happen.

It's a sad shame that it has come to this. I NEVER wished this for Brindy. But it is what it is. I hope we can continue to have a fanbase who sees the ugliness in something like this and isn't partying over seeing the man who led us to a Stanley Cup sitting in the pressbox, no matter how badly he's playing.


Well Said SHC! I agree 100% with all of that.

[SoCalcaniac]

Yes, SHC well said.

I am crystal clear in my recollection of that whole Andreychuk debacle in Tampa, and the thread we had going commenting on all that was happening. That was just a few seasons ago, and what's so hard for me to wrap my brain around, is how in a couple short years it's happened to US.

So because somebody has done so much for the team in the past they should be played over people who can contribute more in the here and now, no matter how bad the player of the past is currently playing?

I'm presuming you were responding to what I posted so if so, I'll say this- NO I'm not saying just because "somebody" has done so much for this team/org should be played over others. I'm pretty clear in that I've been troubled by Rod's slide. I'm pissed that AWard stinks it up regularly, so I'd be thrilled to pieces if someone sat his sorry behind down right now, so I'm pretty equal in that regard. I'm more ticked at Aaron's situation, because at least Rod has the knee surgery to fall on. What the heck's Aaron's excuse? My point in my original post was that you'd think 3 years ago is now 30 years ago, with the way Rod's contributions to this organization have been quickly discarded. I think he should be afforded the courtesy of grace and that's not happened here.

[KaniacFever]

I think SHC summed it up very nicely.

[FinFan]

AWard's excuse? He played at Boston last year :lol:

No, AWard has no place to talk. Anyone listen to him this afternoon and hear what he had to say about this situation? I don't live near enough to pick up 99.9.

[livinthedream]

I couldn't find the audio clip replay but it may be posted out there somewhere or out later, they actually lost AWard on his cell for awhile and killed a few minutes while he reconnected. And unfortunately it was right in the middle of his comments about Brindy so it was disjointed. He basically said that he didn't know about it until shortly before game time, said that of course he felt bad, but that he really didn't have a lot of insight because the coaches don't always reveal why they make a decision, whether it's to cause a shake-up, a spark, etc. He did say there was a lot of human element involved and sensitivity toward a teammate, because as a player you're always aware that it could be you there too.

That's all I can remember he said about the subject. His other comment of interest to me was his response as to why they kept giving up back-to-back goals. He said last night's timeout was well-timed in terms of getting the team's focus back, that there doesn't seem to be any logic behind the b-t-b goals but that they seem to quickly lose confidence and tighten up after a goal and it's not (in his words) a coaching or management issue, it's on the ice. Then they started talking golf so I zoned out.

BTW, when I went to the 99.9 archives to look for the audio, I noticed that on the Insiders webpage (Mark and Mike) they're running a poll asking whether or not the 'C' should be stripped from Brindy and a new captain named, and right now it's 80% NO.

[superdave]

I felt a little uncomfortable last night with all the Brindy commercials. It seemed like there was one on at every break.

[shill22]

just a thought so please don't flame me but maybe if Brindy would decide on his own, it wouldn't be unpleasantly decided for him. yes-he was a big part of getting the Cup-but since his injury, he hasn't been the same. I'd guess he'd feel better about giving up the 'C' if it was what was best for the team instead of it being taken away. don't know-i'm not in his shoes(thankfully)

[Canesluver]

It seems to me that the only people talking about taking away Brindy's "C" is fans and media. It's not coming from the organization or the players themselves-- and that's really the only people who matter. I certainly wouldn't want his "C" taken away because of muck-raking media and fans.

[puck_it]

Forslund, while he's media, is pretty much a mouth piece for the org...

[BrooklynCaniac]

People get the C for all different reasons. Even if Brindy was playing a fourth line role 6-8 minutes he should wear the C. Even if he did get the healthy scratch every once in a while he's the epitome of what it takes to be an NHL player. Do I like watching him barley able to get up and down the ice? No Do I like a two time seleke trophy winner being the worst in the league at +/- for the second straight year? No but I think as long as he does play for us he should keep the C. Do I think he should retire at the end of this season and enjoy all the accolades of a future hall of famer Yes.

[superdave]

Forslund, while he's media, is pretty much a mouth piece for the org...

...which is understandable since PK signs his paycheck. That being said, he's pretty honest. He isn't going to bite the hand that feeds him by calling for Brindy's "C" on a platter but he doesn't shy away from pointing out players and issues.

[KaniacFever]

Couple weeks ago Forslund said if they were going to strip the 'C' from Brindy, then they should have done it over the summer. The org decided not to, therefore, they made their bed, now they have to lay in it. Stripping the 'C' from Brindy in the middle of the season will have a negative impact on the team.

With that said, I wouldn't be surprised that all this is trying to get him to retire on his own accord. Coming into the season Brindy said he has all intentions of playing out his last 2 years. Maybe the org is trying to get him to retire on his own rather embarrass him and buy him out over the summer.

Just my 2 cents.

[nccanes]

Couple weeks ago Forslund said if they were going to strip the 'C' from Brindy, then they should have done it over the summer. The org decided not to, therefore, they made their bed, now they have to lay in it. Stripping the 'C' from Brindy in the middle of the season will have a negative impact on the team.


I admit to not having listened to JF's recent interviews, but this ^ is exactly how I recall a previous discussion about it. I can't imagine JF ever weighing in with his OWN opinion of who should have the "C" as he's neither a player or coach.

[ontheboards]

OK, I think I've got it figured out
2) Brindy becomes coach thus keeping his salary intact overall, but pulling it out of cap calculations



If I understand the CBA correctly, because this contract was signed after the player was age 35, it stays on the books-- no cap relief for the Canes.

[ButtersSaysNo]

I think the Canes will end up having to buy his last yr out if they do not want him to return next season. I do not see Brindy retiring.

[x]

This situation has absolutely been mis-handeled so far by the organization:

1st mistake- signing a 35-yr-old Brind'Amour to a 5-yr deal. In a sport with guaranteed contracts, you should never, ever, ever sign someone to a deal like that.

2nd mistake- Refusing to acknowledge the fact that this team plays better w/o Brind'Amour, and allowing him to continue as Captain during the past two off-seasons. Two seasons ago, when Rod went down, Staal suddenly returned to '05-06 form and the team caught fire. Last season, when Rod was finally given a couple games of rest, the team knocked off San Jose on the road (the best team in the NHL at that point) and began the run that saved their season. When Rod came back, he played much better (until the playoffs, where he stunk again), but it was still Staal who was leading the team. And this season, the team captures it's first road win in the first game where Brind'Amour's a scratch. Also, I thought Staal played his best game since the injury. Not only does Brind'Amour's absence translate into more wins and better energy on the bench, but Staal begins to slow glimpses of his true potential as a player and a leader. The organization could have acknowledged these patterns by taking Rod's C away either following the '08 season or especially following the '09 season.

3rd mistake- Stating that Brind'Amour would have to earn his spot on the roster during training camp, when in fact he was guaranteed a spot regardless of his play (as evidenced by Sutter's outstanding camp being rewarded with a trip down to Albany). It also took WAY too long for his minutes to decrease, precious weeks passing as our season circled the drain. Monday's scratch was long overdue, as our captain should've been the very first player held accountable for this debacle.

However, these horrible and costly mistakes do not mean that we have to continue to mis-handle this situation by letting it continue to keep our team from moving forward and turning the page. Brind'Amour should continue to be scratched from games as long as the team is responding positively and we are winning. JR should be meeting with Rod to discuss his future, and we should be looking at waivers and buy-out as options. As far as the captaincy goes, I don't think anyone on this team deserves that right now. Staal should certainly not be awarded the captaincy just because of glimpses of brilliance in the past or his long-term contract. He should have to earn it. I've seen other teams go without a captain for a time to see if a true leader emerges. That would be a wise move for us now.

[Kat]

If I understand the CBA correctly, because this contract was signed after the player was age 35, it stays on the books-- no cap relief for the Canes.

I believe you are correct, even if he retires. I think the only way we get any cap relief at all is through a trade, buyout, or assignment to the minors.

A buyout will afford some cap relief, but it spreads a percentage out for twice the length of the remaining contract. Assigment to the minors takes $100K off the top (which is pretty much nothing).

Also, the cap salary is an average of the salary for the length of the contract. So the current year's salary may or may not be the actual cap hit of the player.

[nccanes]

^^The decisions are not easy because they aren't all about numbers on a page and 23 blank lines on the roster.

And because this organization has never treated their players that way, is in a big way, why it has the respect it does, despite it's sun-belt-back-woods-mayberry-nascar-stole-the-whalers image that it gets.

Show me a club that wouldn't have signed Rod to that contract and also show me the last team that stripped their Stanley Cup winning Captain of his "C" mid season.

Hearing Forslund's reaction to the scratch indicates to me that Rod Brind'Amour still has the respect of many....why humiliate him further ? Because a few hard ass fans are pissed off at his performance? Do you honestly think that would counter the fan backlash for embarrassing their 2006 hero?

[ButtersSaysNo]

This situation has absolutely been mis-handeled so far by the organization:

1st mistake- signing a 35-yr-old Brind'Amour to a 5-yr deal. In a sport with guaranteed contracts, you should never, ever, ever sign someone to a deal like that.

2nd mistake- Refusing to acknowledge the fact that this team plays better w/o Brind'Amour, and allowing him to continue as Captain during the past two off-seasons. Two seasons ago, when Rod went down, Staal suddenly returned to '05-06 form and the team caught fire. Last season, when Rod was finally given a couple games of rest, the team knocked off San Jose on the road (the best team in the NHL at that point) and began the run that saved their season. When Rod came back, he played much better (until the playoffs, where he stunk again), but it was still Staal who was leading the team. And this season, the team captures it's first road win in the first game where Brind'Amour's a scratch. Also, I thought Staal played his best game since the injury. Not only does Brind'Amour's absence translate into more wins and better energy on the bench, but Staal begins to slow glimpses of his true potential as a player and a leader. The organization could have acknowledged these patterns by taking Rod's C away either following the '08 season or especially following the '09 season.

3rd mistake- Stating that Brind'Amour would have to earn his spot on the roster during training camp, when in fact he was guaranteed a spot regardless of his play (as evidenced by Sutter's outstanding camp being rewarded with a trip down to Albany). It also took WAY too long for his minutes to decrease, precious weeks passing as our season circled the drain. Monday's scratch was long overdue, as our captain should've been the very first player held accountable for this debacle.

However, these horrible and costly mistakes do not mean that we have to continue to mis-handle this situation by letting it continue to keep our team from moving forward and turning the page. Brind'Amour should continue to be scratched from games as long as the team is responding positively and we are winning. JR should be meeting with Rod to discuss his future, and we should be looking at waivers and buy-out as options. As far as the captaincy goes, I don't think anyone on this team deserves that right now. Staal should certainly not be awarded the captaincy just because of glimpses of brilliance in the past or his long-term contract. He should have to earn it. I've seen other teams go without a captain for a time to see if a true leader emerges. That would be a wise move for us now.

Disagree with much of what you posted.

Cup Yr - 70 pts - Earned right to come back as Captain in 06-07

06-07 - 82 pts - Earned right to come back as Captain in 07-08

07-08 - 51 pts in 59 game prior to knee injury - Earned right to come back as Captain in 08-09

08-09 - 51 pts/terrible +/-/much better at end of season/bad play-offs - First time where you can seriously have a debate about whether he should remain Captain (for 09-10 season).

No matter what, organization needed to make a decision this past off-season. They decided to wait and see and now we are where we are and this is going to end badly for Brindy and organization. For that I am very ticked off at JR.

[nccanes]

No matter what, organization needed to make a decision this past off-season. They decided to wait and see and now we are where we are and this is going to end badly for Brindy and organization. For that I am very ticked off at JR.

But that's presuming that a change in the "C" would have been welcomed by the roster and whomever would have rec'd it. It's also presuming that the change would have had any impact whatsoever on the team's performance.

This is a veteran team (to be ushered out for the youth), so I think an argument could be made that the other vet players would have been really down on "removing" the "C" from Rod. And that goes for Staal's take on it as well.

I still have hope that it doesn't have to end badly. I hope JR and Rod can continue to work this out, because I believe that both of them respect each other greatly. There is no rush (imo) because we are going nowhere this season. JR can wait and see how Rod plays and Rod can consider his own options. Waiving him (I know you didn't suggest that Butters) is just stupid imo - there would be no takers and there would be GREAT backlash, from fans and players I suspect. See: Lightning, Tampa Bay.

[ontheboards]

At the time of the contract with Brind'Amour, JR took a lot of grief and criticism for signing a 35 year old player to that kind of contract-- length and money wise. JR said if it were any other player, he'd have second thoughts, but not with the work ethic and physical shape of Brind'Amour This is not a GM who went blindly into this agreement and the contract allowed the Canes to re-sign Brind'Amour at a bit of a hometown rate due to the length. Given this, I really hope the organization sucks it up and does the right thing by the warchief.

Caveat emptor!

[x]

^^The decisions are not easy because they aren't all about numbers on a page and 23 blank lines on the roster.

And because this organization has never treated their players that way, is in a big way, why it has the respect it does, despite it's sun-belt-back-woods-mayberry-nascar-stole-the-whalers image that it gets.

Show me a club that wouldn't have signed Rod to that contract and also show me the last team that stripped their Stanley Cup winning Captain of his "C" mid season.

Hearing Forslund's reaction to the scratch indicates to me that Rod Brind'Amour still has the respect of many....why humiliate him further ? Because a few hard ass fans are pissed off at his performance? Do you honestly think that would counter the fan backlash for embarrassing their 2006 hero?

Regarding your first point, then why act like Brind'Amour has to earn his spot, when in actuality, he doesn't? When we signed Yelle, it was obvious that Brind'Amour was going to be at least this team's 3rd line center starting the season. Regarding your second point, the primary reason this organization gets any respect is because we've won. I understand what you mean about guys liking playing here because we are good/loyal to our players. However, I would argue that our overly-loyal management style also causes players to be comfortable and content when they are not producing and the team is not winning. That is not a good thing. Regarding your third point, of course Forslund is going to say the team was upset about Rod's scratch. What's he going to say? And even if the team was upset, I don't think that's necessarily a bad thing given the way this season has gone.

Disagree with much of what you posted.

Cup Yr - 70 pts - Earned right to come back as Captain in 06-07

06-07 - 82 pts - Earned right to come back as Captain in 07-08

07-08 - 51 pts in 59 game prior to knee injury - Earned right to come back as Captain in 08-09

08-09 - 51 pts/terrible +/-/much better at end of season/bad play-offs - First time where you can seriously have a debate about whether he should remain Captain (for 09-10 season).

No matter what, organization needed to make a decision this past off-season. They decided to wait and see and now we are where we are and this is going to end badly for Brindy and organization. For that I am very ticked off at JR.

I disagree with you on '07-08, as I thought it was clear that the rest of the team, especially Staal, played better without Rod Brind'Amour. Regardless, it was crystal clear after last season that Brind'Amour should no longer be the captain of this team. I think you and I agree that the organization's mis-management of this situation has caused it to become uglier than it had to be. I just don't think that our lack of wisdom and foresight in the past means we should perpetuate this culture of loyalty-to-a-fault and no accountability by allowing Rod to hang around as captain as long as he wants.

But that's presuming that a change in the "C" would have been welcomed by the roster and whomever would have rec'd it. It's also presuming that the change would have had any impact whatsoever on the team's performance.

This is a veteran team (to be ushered out for the youth), so I think an argument could be made that the other vet players would have been really down on "removing" the "C" from Rod. And that goes for Staal's take on it as well.

I still have hope that it doesn't have to end badly. I hope JR and Rod can continue to work this out, because I believe that both of them respect each other greatly. There is no rush (imo) because we are going nowhere this season. JR can wait and see how Rod plays and Rod can consider his own options. Waiving him (I know you didn't suggest that Butters) is just stupid imo - there would be no takers and there would be GREAT backlash, from fans and players I suspect. See: Lightning, Tampa Bay.

Management should do what is best for the team. Period. Centimentality aside, I don't think there could be a reasonable argument made this summer that Brind'Amour deserved to be the captain of this team. Some fans and maybe even some players may have been upset by it, but I think the benefits would've outweighed the risks. I know there is a lot of concern about embarrassing Brind'Amour by squeezing him out. Trust me, I understand that it's hard to see someone put out to pasture that has meant so much to our organization. But he is being paid big money to produce on the ice, and his role as captain demands a standard of leadership that he has not provided for two years now. It's past time to move on. If he doesn't want to be embarrassed by this, he has every right to retire of his own accord. If he chooses to stick it out when he isn't producing at the level that should be expected of him, he can't really complain about whatever the organization ends up doing.

[puck_it]

only way to reduce brindys cap hit is a buyout. but that obviously has real monetary implications.

[KaniacFever]

X, I was 50/50 during the off season whether they should strip the C from Brindy, especially hearing JRs comments that he would not be guaranteed a spot. If they thought that then, then yeah, they probably should have made the change then. For whatever reason they didn't.

However, I am 100% in the thought that you do not strip him of the C now. Nor do I agree with waiving him or buying him out now. This season is a lose cause. Why do that now? Its not going to damage or hurt the team to keep Brindy as the captain and keep him a part of this team.

If he doesn't retire on his own accord after the season, then I'm sure he will be bought out then. Its just stupid and uncalled for to do it now. The team is not going to make the playoffs doing it now.

[nccanes]

Management should do what is best for the team. Period.


I would agree, but with a slight change. Management should do what is best for the franchise. Period.

Only it's harder to do than to talk about.

Using the Andreychuk example. They waived him in January 2006. The Lightning made the playoffs as a 7th seed and lost in the first round. Lost in the first round the next season too. Then they went on to finish last, got the 1st pick, and went on to finish 2nd to last. They got 2 top 2 picks in back to back years and are still sitting in 9th place in the East. So now we approach the 4th anniversary of his waiver and you have to wonder what exactly it bought them.
edit: had to correct this, was missing the season following Andreychuk's waiver.

My sister lives in Tampa. She serves MSL his girly drinks at the Starbucks she works at. Her knowledge of the Bolts is that MSL plays for them and that they occasionally get swanky seats in the XO club from my bro-in-law's connections. But when they shat on Andreychuk, she emailed because her friends that were lightning fans were aghast at what they'd done to him.

My point? You have to look at the WHOLE picture. Not every person that buys tickets for the Canes knows Rod's +/-. And even some that do (raises hand) don't want to see him treated like Tampa treated Andreychuk. And given that we're on a slow train to nowhere, maybe doing NOTHING at this point is the best thing. Let Rod and JR digest the situation and then figure it out in the summer when emotion is less at the forefront.

I'm done talking about the damn "C". He's got it - I'd be pissed if they stripped him (and any other player mideseason who didn't do something completely stupid off ice or something) now. Of all the bs reasons for being as horrible as they are, this one is just noise...imo.

[Kat]

Okay, according to this: http://www.nhlscap.com/cap_faq.htm#buyouts, because of the 35+ rule, a buyout (now or in the off season) will not reduce the cap hit at all.

I believe that we can pretty much assume the 3.6M cap hit for him next year, whether he retires or not, unless of course they trade him (unlikely). Reasons why not to sign these long term contracts, I guess.

Based on that, I assume he will be a Hurricane until the end of the 2010-11 season. They may decide to give the "C" to someone else next year, but I just don't see that happening this year.

After reading all of this, I wonder why TB bothered to waive/assign Andreychuk to the minors. It didn't really gain them anything, except a roster spot and maybe making the minor league club pay his salary?

[nccanes]

The last paragraph is exactly why it was puzzling.

And iirc, it played out when they were in Buffalo on a game day and he said he learned of it from the media - or some such clusterf*ck. At least I feel pretty comfortable that it wouldn't play out that way with the Canes.

[Kat]

^I hope not.

Btw, E, look, I finally researched CBA questions instead of making you do it! :lol:

[SoCalcaniac]

Yep, that who thing was MORONIC; and that whole thing -Andreychuk finding out through the media, and iirc, didn't Andreychuk have friends from his time in BUF who were supposed to be at the game? I wanna say that was the in there too. Total mess.

There is no benefit on buying out a 35+ yr old player; this was the much discussed consolation written into the CBA "for the benefit of the players" --- e.g. if one plays in this league for that long, they should be afforded that guarantee. I remember it being something talked about when they did finally agree on the CBA, but it was very much glossed over, as more of a we'll see what happens when this comes up with a player.

[nccanes]

Yep, that who thing was MORONIC; and that whole thing -Andreychuk finding out through the media, and iirc, didn't Andreychuk have friends from his time in BUF who were supposed to be at the game? I wanna say that was the in there too. Total mess.



Since you asked!!

http://www.letsgocanes.com/forum/showpost.php?p=194419&postcount=143

:lol:

From a time when I OBVIOUSLY had time to kill/burn/waste!

Funny that I drew the comparison the the RF situation....of course, easy to come to that conclusion after a lockout and a kick ass start to the 06-07 season....

[SoCalcaniac]

Since you asked!!

http://www.letsgocanes.com/forum/showpost.php?p=194419&postcount=143

:lol:
From a time when I OBVIOUSLY had time to kill/burn/waste!

Funny that I drew the comparison the the RF situation....of course, easy to come to that conclusion after a lockout and a kick ass start to the 06-07 season....


:lol: OMG E, You kill me. I knew we had a thread, discussion going on about this, and I know many of us chimed in- but holy cow, I REMEMBERED this post as I started to read it! :laugh:

If I didn't see all the different Tampa names in that post, and didn't know it was Tampa- there's a similar vibe around this but thankfully nobody's done Rod "wrong" just yet, and I'm praying not.

I'm still cracking up that you pulled this post up. :lol:;)

[x]

To clarify, could someone please post the following:

In case of a buy-out, how much money we would owe Brind'Amour per season, and how much would count against the cap per season.

In case of retirement, how much money we would owe Brind'Amour per season, and how much would count against the cap per season.

Thanks!!!

[wheels76]

Not sure if it has been mentioned, but Rod is back tonight and Sammy is out with 'lower body injury'. Go Canes!

Edit: Wrong thread, my bad....carry on kids!

[nccanes]

To clarify, could someone please post the following:

In case of a buy-out, how much money we would owe Brind'Amour per season, and how much would count against the cap per season.

In case of retirement, how much money we would owe Brind'Amour per season, and how much would count against the cap per season.

Thanks!!!

From the link Kat posted above regarding buyouts:

Teams were given a one-time chance to buy-out players for 2/3rds of the remaining value of the contract between July 23 and July 29, 2005 without the buy-out counting against the salary cap. In future years, teams may still buy-out player contracts for a portion of the remaining value of the contract paid over twice the remaining length of the contract. If the player is
-- Under the age of 26 at the time of termination, the buyout amount is 1/3rd the remaining value
-- 26 or older at the time of termination, the buyout amount is 2/3rd the remaining value.

This is set forth in 13(d) of the Standard Player Contract (Exhibit 1 in the CBA). The remainder of this explanation applies to buyouts that took place after July 29, 2005, and assumes the player was not 35 or older when signing his SPC (in which case a buyout does not reduce the cap hit).

When a player is bought out, the team still takes a cap hit for the player over twice the remaining length of the contract. The amount of the cap hit (by year) is determined as follows:

1. Take the actual salary due for each remaining year.
2. Take the Averaged Player Salary (cap hit) for the current contract
3. Calculate the buy-out amount (as described above)
4. Spread the buy-out amount evenly over twice the remaining years of the contract
5. Take the number in #1 and subtract the number in #4. This is the “buyout savings”.
6. Take the cap hit from #2 and subtract the buyout savings from #5.

So for the buyout option, I believe we owe him 2/3 of his salary and we take the full hit on the cap money.

Retirement we owe him nada and presumably we take the full hit on the cap money as well.

[nccanes]

Puck Daddy column, (http://sports.yahoo.com/nhl/blog/puck_daddy/post/Brind-Amour-returns-as-Hurricanes-back-their-wa?urn=nhl,207731) with quotes from Waker and Staal (via NHL.com). Puck Daddy also mentions Brind'Amour's 16 point month of March last season (http://sports.yahoo.com/nhl/players/45/gamelog;_ylt=Aha9hFV2YwkWA5cckQFOyu9ivLYF?year=200 8).

Nice read.

[apolinar]

Not a fan of stripping the C now. Past time for that and he is already embarrassed. (If you treat him like a franchise player, do you really wait til just before the game to tell him he was out for the lineup? Maybe good for the psyche of the other guys in the room though).

Regardless, if he is in the lineup tonight, I'd like to see what kind of light is up under him and if he scores 5. I'd also like to see him be so pissed that he gets in another fight.

[x]

So if we buy-out Rod's contract at the end of the season, we owe him $1M in '10-11 and $1M in '11-12, with a cap hit of $3.6M for each season? And if he retires after the season, we don't owe him anything, but there's a $3.6M cap hit for next season?

If that's the case, that's a massive cap hit for the extra season in case of a buy-out. We really need him to retire. Isn't there a deal with the waiver process where a team can claim a guy the second time through where each team would pay 1/2 the salary (re-entry waivers)? I know nobody would take the full salary, but maybe half? Just trying to consider all the options.

[superdave]

http://www.nhl.com/ice/news.htm?id=509247
Article on nhl.com on Brindy.

[nccanes]

So if we buy-out Rod's contract at the end of the season, we owe him $1M in '10-11 and $1M in '11-12, with a cap hit of $3.6M for each season? And if he retires after the season, we don't owe him anything, but there's a $3.6M cap hit for next season?

If that's the case, that's a massive cap hit for the extra season in case of a buy-out. We really need him to retire. Isn't there a deal with the waiver process where a team can claim a guy the second time through where each team would pay 1/2 the salary (re-entry waivers)? I know nobody would take the full salary, but maybe half? Just trying to consider all the options.

Rod has 1 year left...and his cap hit would be for that 1 season, not 2. The 2/3rd payout is what goes over the 2 years, but since he was over 35 his cap hit situation does not change from what it would be if he was playing.

The retirement part you have right.

The waiver stuff I won't discuss. Unless Rod himself ASKED for that I cannot imagine JR putting him thru that. I would expect him to retire (Andreychuk style) before subjecting himself to that.

Gary Roberts went thru that last season (again, thanks Tampa) and it was very difficult for him and he had NOTHING to do with Tampa's history and success. Roberts had no takers and that had to be difficult...AND he only had a few months left on his contract, not a full season.

x, is it fair to say that you don't care at all about the fan backlash if we treat Rod Brind'Amour like ****?


final edit:

This is from the Andreychuk discussion that was linked as well. So in addition to fan backlash (depending on how this plays out) you could risk NHL Media backlash like this:

Darren Dreger: The method used by Tampa Bay management to try to shed Dave Andreychuk's $800,000 salary is a slap in the face to the veteran left winger.


And I'll say again - not a lot has happened good in Tampa since then, huh? Granted, 3.6 is a lot more than 800k, but tact and respect matter.

[puck_it]

yeah the money thing in tampa was the worst. because they save what, a shade over 300k, since his replacement may make league min?

the other thing that i dont like comparing his situation to LeClaire and Andreychuks, is the fact that those guys didnt play like garbage for two seasons. they got black balled within one. They were never given the chance to shake it. Brindy looked like he was, like last march, then comes into camp this year an absolute friggen mess.

To me it's like ok man, we gave you a chance to bust out of this a-typical play, but now a-typical is turning into typical, and that's a damn shame. it'd be a slap in the face to the organization if he played next year. thats where i sit on it. I'd hate to be an ass to him, but this summer he needs to retire or be told he's done here.

[SouthernHockeyChick]

Gary Roberts went thru that last season (again, thanks Tampa) and it was very difficult for him and he had NOTHING to do with Tampa's history and success. Roberts had no takers and that had to be difficult...AND he only had a few months left on his contract, not a full season.

Oh Jesus, I forgot Roberts! :( The pain I feel in my chest when I read about this crap over players that weren't even on my team....sorry, I just think its wrong.

BTW, 4 people at work who have probably been to 20 games between them in the past 2 seasons (and several this season because they don't know enough to know how badly we're under-performing) have come to ask me WTF we were doing to Brindy. If you don't think the backlash of the casual fan could kill us, you're not thinking clearly.


Stripping the C would do exactly squat for us at this point. I see no reason to do it other than to satisfy a vindictive streak.

[KRAZYCANE05]

You know as long as he is on this team he should keep the "C". Out of all he players other than Rod on the team Ray Whitney needs to wear the "C". He has heart and plays every freaking game. If this team doesn't sign Ray after this year it will be a very bad move. If we can pay Staal all that money to play every 3 games. Staal is no way near ready to wear the "C". He is not worth the money we are paying him.

[MoBigRed]

If this team doesn't sign Ray after this year it will be a very bad move.

I actually agree with that... but all the same, let's not make it a 5-year deal, eh?

[nccanes]

I actually agree with that... but all the same, let's not make it a 5-year deal, eh?

First post in this thread that made me :laugh:

[x]

x, is it fair to say that you don't care at all about the fan backlash if we treat Rod Brind'Amour like ****?

I think where we're disagreeing is that I don't see any of the options I've discussed as treating Rod unfairly or like an expletive. He has been given an absurd amount of time to turn things around as a player and as a leader, and has not. Whether we meet with him to discuss his retirement timetable, bench him, or place him on waivers, none of these things are undeserved, nor should they come as any surprise.

As for fan backlash, it depends on how we frame the move. If we handle the situation respectfully (keep Rod informed at every step, get his input) and frame it as making room for stars of the future to improve our team as quickly as possible, I don't see it as making a huge impact. The reason that fans are in a bad mood is that we are in last place. Anything we do with the roster at this point probably isn't going to be well-received.

yeah the money thing in tampa was the worst. because they save what, a shade over 300k, since his replacement may make league min?

the other thing that i dont like comparing his situation to LeClaire and Andreychuks, is the fact that those guys didnt play like garbage for two seasons. they got black balled within one. They were never given the chance to shake it. Brindy looked like he was, like last march, then comes into camp this year an absolute friggen mess.

To me it's like ok man, we gave you a chance to bust out of this a-typical play, but now a-typical is turning into typical, and that's a damn shame. it'd be a slap in the face to the organization if he played next year. thats where i sit on it. I'd hate to be an ass to him, but this summer he needs to retire or be told he's done here.

Thanks for pointing out the differences with the Andreychuk situation. The two are hardly comparable.

If you don't think the backlash of the casual fan could kill us, you're not thinking clearly.

Casual fans will support this team if we win. We are not going to win with this Rod Brind'Amour hanging on for another season & 2/3 as Captain raking in $3M/yr. Also, this whole thing wouldn't come as such a surprise if our organization & team-related media didn't treat Brind'Amour with kid gloves, largely ignoring any part he's played in this epic failure. In any other market, Brind'Amour would've received so much public criticism already that one game as a healthy scratch would not have been a big deal.

I actually agree with that... but all the same, let's not make it a 5-year deal, eh?

Yeah, I'd be real careful with Whitney. He is one of our best players now, but at his age, his play could decline quickly.

[SouthernHockeyChick]

Whether we meet with him to discuss his retirement timetable, bench him, or place him on waivers, none of these things are undeserved, nor should they come as any surprise.



I don't think anyone has a problem with the first two in your list. The third option plus ripping the C off his jersey is where people have some objections. Can you list one thing positive that would come out of waiving him or taking the C now?

We are not going to win with this Rod Brind'Amour hanging on for another season & 2/3 as Captain raking in $3M/yr. And we are not going to win just because we waive him or strip the C , either.

And WE ARE NOT GOING TO MAKE THE PLAYOFFS. No matter what we do at this point, it ain't happening. Good teams are going on short slumps and finding themselves out of the picture right now. Recovery for us is impossible.

So again, list one thing good that would come out of waiving him or taking the letter now. Cause I can't come up with it.



And for the record, I'm extremely pleased to be a fan of a team who rarely hangs their players out to dry in front of the media.