Was a game thread, now a goaltending thread

[c-girl]

Wow.

You know what? No one disputes that this has been a bad year for the team. More than bad, in fact. But there is plenty of blame to go around so to lay it all at the feet of Cam Ward is a bit ridiculous. Like SHC, I'm not a particular fan of Cam Ward although I am a female. **rolls eyes** But I know enough about this team and Cam Ward and hockey in general to know that without Cam Ward, this team would have lost even more games than they have so far and there would have been a far greater number of goals scored against them.

[SouthernHockeyChick]

I'm sorry, what does how many games Cam played in 2006 have to do with anthing? You yourself said what is going on now is what matters. I believe you may have proven my point that you are the one stuck in 2006. Those numbers I gave for Cam ARE this year, not 2006.



So, you basically don't ever want to actually discuss your opinions, is this what I'm hearing here? You have no counter to any of my points you just want to personally attack me (sorry, there is no hyphen in assessment) now that a logical arguement against your points has apparently hurt your feelings?

It would appear that you just want to stir the pot, call people emotional, border on calling people names, suggest that everyone who doesn't think our goalie is the primary problem is blinded by an 06 Cup run (no different or less offensive than suggesting your opinion makes you seen inexperienced), but you have no desire to logically debate an issue with anything other than emotional outbursts?
Gotcha. Can dish it but absolutely cannot take it. Now I know what I'm dealing with and can hit that ignore feature without ever looking back and wondering if you have contributed anything valuable to the discussion.

Since you asked, I've been a hockey fan for as long as I can remember (but gee, I'm only 38 so I guess you're better!). I attended my first NHL game at the Spectrum in Philly sometime in the late 70s, not sure exactly when---so prior to the age of 7. I had been to many Hershey Bears games prior to that. I have played street hockey but no, unfortunately, I have not ever played ice hockey. Being that I did live in a small town in the South for most of my life there wasn't much opportunity to play and I sure wasn't working it into our visits to PA--the hockey games were hard enough to get to! Feel free to let that color your opinion of my hockey cred.....logical arguements, or even just civil disagreements, obviously aren't your thing.

[KaniacFever]

There are some people who pick a scapegoat for the year and no matter what they do, they will always be at fault. Just got to ignore those people. Like some of those facebook comments. Loved how they were bashing Staal and calling him pathetic, when he actually had a really good game, but then praised Ruutu and said he showed ton of hustle/heart. But the funny thing is, Ruutu was the one benched by the coach, not Staal. Unfortuntly these people are everywhere and is probably best to ignore them.

Hockey is a team sport and therefore the issues when a team is struggling does not lie on one player. This Canes team has more issues than Cam letting in a softie here and there. Has more issues then Staal being non-captain material. Has more issues than LaRose being on the first line, etc.

This team is full of issues this year. But on the bright side, its a very deep draft, and if we do pick in the top 5, we should be getting one hell of a player that will help this team going forward. So there is that

[DJHARLEY]

Originally Posted by SouthernHockeyChick

I'm sorry, what does how many games Cam played in 2006 have to do with anthing? You yourself said what is going on now is what matters. I believe you may have proven my point that you are the one stuck in 2006. Those numbers I gave for Cam ARE this year, not 2006.



So, you basically don't ever want to actually discuss your opinions, is this what I'm hearing here? You have no counter to any of my points you just want to personally attack me (sorry, there is no hyphen in assessment) now that a logical arguement against your points has apparently hurt your feelings?

It would appear that you just want to stir the pot, call people emotional, border on calling people names, suggest that everyone who doesn't think our goalie is the primary problem is blinded by an 06 Cup run (no different or less offensive than suggesting your opinion makes you seen inexperienced), but you have no desire to logically debate an issue with anything other than emotional outbursts?
Gotcha. Can dish it but absolutely cannot take it. Now I know what I'm dealing with and can hit that ignore feature without ever looking back and wondering if you have contributed anything valuable to the discussion.

Since you asked, I've been a hockey fan for as long as I can remember (but gee, I'm only 38 so I guess you're better!). I attended my first NHL game at the Spectrum in Philly sometime in the late 70s, not sure exactly when---so prior to the age of 7. I had been to many Hershey Bears games prior to that. I have played street hockey but no, unfortunately, I have not ever played ice hockey. Being that I did live in a small town in the South for most of my life there wasn't much opportunity to play and I sure wasn't working it into our visits to PA--the hockey games were hard enough to get to! Feel free to let that color your opinion of my hockey cred.....logical arguements, or even just civil disagreements, obviously aren't your thing.

In my opinion that is where so many people have gotten their opinions about Cam. SO no I am not stuck in 06.
Yes I am more than willing to duscuss anything but I am the one that gets called out or its my opinions that effect people in a negative way so most don't want to discuss things,just would rather get po's at me. So as far as your points /stats yes they are stats but I just go with my opinion as to how a player is playing,IMO.
I only "attack" in self defense (and yes in know there is no hyphen, it was a smart a** remark). No I don't get my feeling hurt because other don't agree with my opinions. So no I am not just stirring the pot or calling people out (like I get) Just giving my opinions in my posts. So where have you tried to discuss your opinions with me without calling me out?Would that be
---------{(no different or less offensive than suggesting your opinion makes you seen inexperienced), but you have no desire to logically debate an issue with anything other than emotional outbursts?
Gotcha. Can dish it but absolutely cannot take it. Now I know what I'm dealing with and can hit that ignore feature without ever looking back and wondering if you have contributed anything valuable to the discussion.}---------- this part of your last post?
And about the part of whre you wanted to bring up the thread I started in "off topic" I was 100% really only asking so I could try and stop butting heads with female fans and mostly all I got was saying I was trying to stir the pot,trolling but never really did get honest answers to my questions. So how about this,,If YOU ARE WILLING TO BURY THE HATCHET" I AM ALSO WILLING TO ! So let me know and we can move forwards from here..

[SouthernHockeyChick]

Originally Posted by DJHARLEY

In my opinion that is where so many people have gotten their opinions about Cam.

I explained in my first post why my opinion that Cam is not overpaid for his performance, and is not the weakest link, as you have stated, is in no way based on 2006 performance but on the performance thus far this season in comparison to other goalies in the league.

Originally Posted by DJHARLEY

So as far as your points /stats yes they are stats but I just go with my opinion as to how a player is playing,IMO.

Sounds like you are saying that you have your opinion about Cam Ward based on your subjective feelings and you will not consider other viewpoints no matter what objective evidence can be presented. I really have no issue with that, if that's what you want to base your opinions on. But when you begin to make little backhanded implicationss that everyone else is emotionally attached or that disagreement is something personal against you, when there is evidence to the contrary, it starts to get grating and I tend to respond. Do you plan to continue implying that those who disagree are emotionally attached or just stuck in 2006? Or can you admit that we each have our own basis for our opinions and maybe, just maybe, someone else's is just as valid as yours?


Sorry I pretty much got lost in the rest of your reply but really I have no desire to continue to attempt to convince you that folks' disagreement with your opinions on Cam does not make you persecuted, as you seem to believe.

I have no hatchet to bury. I attempted an actual discussion of our difference in opinion, attempted to illustrate that you are disagreed with based on facts and not prejudice as you imply, and you were not interested. I neither feel personally attacked (I don't care if you want to call me an ass and apparently a PhD, LOL) nor attempted to launch a personal attack--just a discussion that you appear not to want to participate in. Fine by me.

[nccanes]

Originally Posted by DJHARLEY

I only "attack" in self defense (and yes in know there is no hyphen, it was a smart a** remark). No I don't get my feeling hurt because other don't agree with my opinions. So no I am not just stirring the pot or calling people out (like I get) Just giving my opinions in my posts. So where have you tried to discuss your opinions with me without calling me out? Would that be
---------{(no different or less offensive than suggesting your opinion makes you seen inexperienced), but you have no desire to logically debate an issue with anything other than emotional outbursts?
Gotcha. Can dish it but absolutely cannot take it. Now I know what I'm dealing with and can hit that ignore feature without ever looking back and wondering if you have contributed anything valuable to the discussion.}---------- this part of your last post?
And about the part of whre you wanted to bring up the thread I started in "off topic" I was 100% really only asking so I could try and stop butting heads with female fans and mostly all I got was saying I was trying to stir the pot,trolling but never really did get honest answers to my questions. So how about this,,If YOU ARE WILLING TO BURY THE HATCHET" I AM ALSO WILLING TO ! So let me know and we can move forwards from here..

I will admit that I"m not a fan of the "you must not be an experienced fan" projection because I can see where it puts the reader in a defensive mindset (and that applies to just about any time it's used).

BUT, SHC then went on to try to tie pay to performance in a very direct, stat-based post.

You chose not to reply to that and explain how Cam is paid too much (or whatever your assertion is).

If the sole "discussion" is: "I don't think Cam is very good this year" or "I think he's overpaid". Then it's a pretty short discussion.

Poster A: Cam is overpaid and basically sucks.
Poster B: I don't think Cam is over paid and I don't think he sucks.

End of discussion.

There are MANY MANY people - people that make their livings (not hobby) in the NHL that think Cam is an elite goalie. You have to dig a little deeper to support the position that he's otherwise. I thought SHC was trying to get you to explain it by offering some comparisons to other "elite" goalies.

My opinion is that Cam is not holding us back. Perhaps he's not at his best (I haven't watched enough or closely enough to even form my own flawed opinion, lol) but it's not like we've got this awesome team and a sucky goalie.

I guess now that Mo is gone....there's a slot available in the scapegoat department! /snarkycomment

[Convert]

I probably should not jump into this, but here goes.

I think Cam plays to the level of the team.

When the team is sucking and making bad mistakes, so does he.

When they are working hard and playing smart, then he is more focused---and he does steal games for us in that situation--on a regular basis (well, as regular as it can be when you consider that the hard work/play smart combo has been pretty rate).

The shame of this for us is that both Cam and Eric have shown they are two of the best clutch performers in the league come playoff time.

Just need a team around them that helps get them there.

[nccanes]

Also took a quick look at some other stats.

Canes have fewer Goals For than any of the other goalie's teams that were listed (except BUF which has played 2 fewer games).

Canes have faced more shots than any other team in the league.

One of the worst PP teams in the league.

Again, this may not be Cam's proudest year, but who else on the roster is proud at this point?

[DJHARLEY]

Originally Posted by SouthernHockeyChick

I explained in my first post why my opinion that Cam is not overpaid for his performance, and is not the weakest link, as you have stated, is in no way based on 2006 performance but on the performance thus far this season in comparison to other goalies in the league.


Sounds like you are saying that you have your opinion about Cam Ward based on your subjective feelings and you will not consider other viewpoints no matter what objective evidence can be presented. I really have no issue with that, if that's what you want to base your opinions on. But when you begin to make little backhanded implicationss that everyone else is emotionally attached or that disagreement is something personal against you, when there is evidence to the contrary, it starts to get grating and I tend to respond. Do you plan to continue implying that those who disagree are emotionally attached or just stuck in 2006? Or can you admit that we each have our own basis for our opinions and maybe, just maybe, someone else's is just as valid as yours?


Sorry I pretty much got lost in the rest of your reply but really I have no desire to continue to attempt to convince you that folks' disagreement with your opinions on Cam does not make you persecuted, as you seem to believe.

I have no hatchet to bury. I attempted an actual discussion of our difference in opinion, attempted to illustrate that you are disagreed with based on facts and not prejudice as you imply, and you were not interested. I neither feel personally attacked (I don't care if you want to call me an ass and apparently a PhD, LOL) nor attempted to launch a personal attack--just a discussion that you appear not to want to participate in. Fine by me.

No problem, I am just going by where the team is and has been for the last 5 seasons with wins and loses.

I just look at the game more from the goalie out and not from the center to the wingers to the dmen and then the goalie. To me if the goalie lets in a softy early in the game, I think that deflates the team and they are like" oh heck here we go again". Where as if the goalie bails the team out early by making great saves it really pumps the team up. Then they move forwards instead of having to catch up. So that is how I look at the team during a game and where I get my opinions from.

[KaniacFever]

As a comparison, Ward's sv % puts him with guys named Miller, Hiller, Brodeur, just to name a few.

I'm not going to say Ward is having his best year. But he is absolutly NOT the reason why this team is in last. Nor is Staal (the other scapegoat).

There are 2 issues with this team that has nothing to do with 1 individual player, IMO:

1- Jim Rutherford
He put this team together. We lost guys like Whitney, Stillman, Cole, Cullen, Brind'Amour, Wesley and replace them with who? Poni, Stewart, Samsonov, Letowski, Hamilton. We lost a lot of skill and talent and replaced them with marginal skill/talent. This team is just not good enough.

2- Maurice
I know the guy is gone and I still blame him. But he put alot of bad into these guys. It was like he was telling them they aren't good enough to win unless they played that grinding game where you hope to win 2-1. The prospects (Bowman/Dalpe) confidence is shot. Bowman admitted he has been frustrated that he hasn't been given the opportunity when called up under Mo.

I know no one wants to see or read the word fragile, but this is the #1 problem with this team. Their confidence is shot to hell. Muller is trying to get it back, but its going to take time.

I know people *****ed and complained about Staal in the shootout, but I see what he was trying to do. Staal was going last night. He didn't score, but he played a great game. He got that breakaway on Reimer a few games ago. So send him out there, let him know that you as the coach still have faith and confidence in him. Did it work, no. But if it did, Muller would have been a genius.

One player or even 2-3 players does not make a team last in the conference or 27th in the league.

Yes Staal and Ward are our money guys, so I get fans expect them to be superman everynight. But we have to remember that these guys are human just like you and I. They can only do so much and when both guys have been pulling the weight for 2-3 years like they have, its going to take a toll. Then you add in a struggling team who hasn't had an identity in like 3 years, you have yourself a recipe of disaster.

[DJHARLEY]

Originally Posted by nccanes

I will admit that I"m not a fan of the "you must not be an experienced fan" projection because I can see where it puts the reader in a defensive mindset (and that applies to just about any time it's used).

BUT, SHC then went on to try to tie pay to performance in a very direct, stat-based post.

You chose not to reply to that and explain how Cam is paid too much (or whatever your assertion is).

If the sole "discussion" is: "I don't think Cam is very good this year" or "I think he's overpaid". Then it's a pretty short discussion.

Poster A: Cam is overpaid and basically sucks.
Poster B: I don't think Cam is over paid and I don't think he sucks.

End of discussion.

There are MANY MANY people - people that make their livings (not hobby) in the NHL that think Cam is an elite goalie. You have to dig a little deeper to support the position that he's otherwise. I thought SHC was trying to get you to explain it by offering some comparisons to other "elite" goalies.

My opinion is that Cam is not holding us back. Perhaps he's not at his best (I haven't watched enough or closely enough to even form my own flawed opinion, lol) but it's not like we've got this awesome team and a sucky goalie.

I guess now that Mo is gone....there's a slot available in the scapegoat department! /snarkycomment

With the SHC stats I can understand why and where she came up with those stats, but IMO with all the losses and where we have been for the last few years I guess I just go by my opinion and emotion as too what I think about Cam. When I say something about a player,it's never about them persoanally just as a player. So as to my reply to how I think Cam is way over paid I go by win/loses and how many times we have made it to the playoffs.
And yes there are a lot of people out there that get paid to give thier opinions about players but with all the political correctness and trying to look at the positive side of evevrything ( have to cover their a**es) none of these guys really like to call out a player because of the stuff that comes back at them,(again-just my opinion)

Like you said to now that Mo is gone maybe ,hopefully things will change into a more positive team moving forwards.

[nccanes]

Originally Posted by DJHARLEY

No problem, I am just going by where the team is and has been for the last 5 seasons with wins and loses.

I just look at the game more from the goalie out and not from the center to the wingers to the dmen and then the goalie. To me if the goalie lets in a softy early in the game, I think that deflates the team and they are like" oh heck here we go again". Where as if the goalie bails the team out early by making great saves it really pumps the team up. Then they move forwards instead of having to catch up. So that is how I look at the team during a game and where I get my opinions from.

I don't think most people would disagree.

But the question is, how often does Cam give up a softy early in a game? Those are the kind of things you have to delve into to support a theory. Does it happen? I'm sure it does but how often?

The contrary opinion (even if there is some numerical "proof" that it happens too often) is that if you a goal against is given up, say, 5 minutes into the game, the team has 55 minutes to score 2 (or more) goals. If you don't have faith in your team to do that, what's the point?

[DJHARLEY]

Originally Posted by KaniacFever

As a comparison, Ward's sv % puts him with guys named Miller, Hiller, Brodeur, just to name a few.

I'm not going to say Ward is having his best year. But he is absolutly NOT the reason why this team is in last. Nor is Staal (the other scapegoat).

There are 2 issues with this team that has nothing to do with 1 individual player, IMO:

1- Jim Rutherford
He put this team together. We lost guys like Whitney, Stillman, Cole, Cullen, Brind'Amour, Wesley and replace them with who? Poni, Stewart, Samsonov, Letowski, Hamilton. We lost a lot of skill and talent and replaced them with marginal skill/talent. This team is just not good enough.

2- Maurice
I know the guy is gone and I still blame him. But he put alot of bad into these guys. It was like he was telling them they aren't good enough to win unless they played that grinding game where you hope to win 2-1. The prospects (Bowman/Dalpe) confidence is shot. Bowman admitted he has been frustrated that he hasn't been given the opportunity when called up under Mo.

I know no one wants to see or read the word fragile, but this is the #1 problem with this team. Their confidence is shot to hell. Muller is trying to get it back, but its going to take time.

I know people *****ed and complained about Staal in the face off, but I see what he was trying to do. Staal was going last night. He didn't score, but he played a great game. He got that breakaway on Reimer a few games ago. So send him out there, let him know that you as the coach still have faith and confidence in him. Did it work, no. But if it did, Muller would have been a genius.

One player or even 2-3 players does not make a team last in the conference or 27th in the league.

Yes Staal and Ward are our money guys, so I get fans expect them to be superman everynight. But we have to remember that these guys are human just like you and I. They can only do so much and when both guys have been pulling the weight for 2-3 years like they have, its going to take a toll. Then you add in a struggling team who hasn't had an identity in like 3 years, you have yourself a recipe of disaster.

Yep I will agree with you, but I guess like you said with Ward & Staal, you just expect so much more out of them it just gets frustrating. I agree also with the JR part bigtime, as well as adding in the PK part of not wanting to move up off the cap floor with money. But unfortunetly I guess we are getting what they pay for?

[DJHARLEY]

Originally Posted by nccanes

I don't think most people would disagree.

But the question is, how often does Cam give up a softy early in a game? Those are the kind of things you have to delve into to support a theory. Does it happen? I'm sure it does but how often?

The contrary opinion (even if there is some numerical "proof" that it happens too often) is that if you a goal against is given up, say, 5 minutes into the game, the team has 55 minutes to score 2 (or more) goals. If you don't have faith in your team to do that, what's the point?

Guess I will have to see if there is any place to find that stat ( time of 1st goal) and see if it is just in my head that he gives up an early goal! Yes they do have 55 minutes to catch up but I'm sure they would rather not have to play catch up hockey instead of we're ever or ahead hockey. Seems like a lot of players press to hard when behind and make more mistakes than if they play their regular game..

[andyt]

Do you think Ward made the ASG last year becuase of home cooking? He was a legit All-Star selection last year. At the time the rosters were selected he had a .925 Save %. It was top 5 in the league at that time. He was facing an average of 32.5 shots per game and that included 3 games where he got an early hook after facing a total of 40 shots. He finished with a .923 Save %, tied for 7th among goalies who played at least 25 games.

He's clearly not playing to that level now. But he was an elite goalie last year. Ask Vigneault if he would have rather had Ward or Luongo in net in the SCF last year. Anyone who thinks Ward is living off 2006 has a very, very short memory.

[nccanes]

^^Well, the oft-mentioned 2006 team had a lot of 3rd period comebacks -- at least that's the legend isn't it? They didn't seem to lack the mindset that they still had 20 minutes left to play.

Clearly this team is missing that tenacious mindset (...and enough talent).

[DJHARLEY]

Originally Posted by andyt

Do you think Ward made the ASG last year becuase of home cooking? He was a legit All-Star selection last year. At the time the rosters were selected he had a .925 Save %. It was top 5 in the league at that time. He was facing an average of 32.5 shots per game and that included 3 games where he got an early hook after facing a total of 40 shots. He finished with a .923 Save %, tied for 7th among goalies who played at least 25 games.

He's clearly not playing to that level now. But he was an elite goalie last year. Ask Vigneault if he would have rather had Ward or Luongo in net in the SCF last year. Anyone who thinks Ward is living off 2006 has a very, very short memory.

To me the allstar game is more of a popularity contest than a TRUE ALLSTAR game. Plus in my opinion how can you have a ASG halfway thru a season,where as someone can come out of the gates playing well (which they should after having months off) and then has a bad 2nd half of the season and the team they represent doesn't even make the playoffs! Again that is just my opinion. I go more by how the NFL does the ALLSTAR game.

[nccanes]

Originally Posted by DJHARLEY

To me the allstar game is more of a popularity contest than a TRUE ALLSTAR game. Plus in my opinion how can you have a ASG halfway thru a season,where as someone can come out of the gates playing well (which they should after having months off) and then has a bad 2nd half of the season and the team they represent doesn't even make the playoffs! Again that is just my opinion. I go more by how the NFL does the ALLSTAR game.

But you dismissed the rest of what andy put in his post that support Cam's status as a very good goaltender?

As Andy said, he was TOP 5 in the league at the time of the ASG. 7th at the end of the season.

Why did you shift it to the ASG itself rather than Cam's performance last year as supported by Andy's post?

[c-girl]

Why did you shift it to the ASG itself rather than Cam's performance last year as supported by Andy's post?

I call this the "Trying to Nail Jello to the Wall" method of debate. Just when you think the nail's going in, the jello moves.

[DJHARLEY]

Originally Posted by nccanes

But you dismissed the rest of what andy put in his post that support Cam's status as a very good goaltender?

As Andy said, he was TOP 5 in the league at the time of the ASG. 7th at the end of the season.

Why did you shift it to the ASG itself rather than Cam's performance last year as supported by Andy's post?

Ok so as being a top 5 how do you get in if you are #3,4 or 5 when you only need 2 goalies?(per side/team) Was Cam number 1 or 2,( I don't know myself?) The reason I did is because thats what was broght up.ASG Plus if he was 3,4,5 and ended up @ 7th that just shows his game got worse as the season went on after the ASG. The way I read into it is that he was #5,no I didn't check into those stats.

Plus about living off the 06 season,(Andy's post) that is where his new contract was probably brought up in negotiations ){SC and MVP} and why he is making so much money. (Sorry but again its just my opinion)

[toastmasterbone]

I have a hard time evaluating anyone without their complements: I love some of the saves Cam has made, and have winced at some of the softies he's let in. We're the kings of being on the wrong side of odd-man rushes, so I can't bring myself to talk crap about him until I see what he can do with a real defense in front of him.

[nccanes]

Originally Posted by DJHARLEY

Ok so as being a top 5 how do you get in if you are #3,4 or 5 when you only need 2 goalies?(per side/team) Was Cam number 1 or 2,( I don't know myself?) The reason I did is because thats what was broght up.ASG Plus if he was 3,4,5 and ended up @ 7th that just shows his game got worse as the season went on after the ASG. The way I read into it is that he was #5,no I didn't check into those stats.

There are 6 goalies used in the ASG, 3 for each conference. Oh I guess in this case it was 6 across the league, I forgot they did that draft thing last year.

Again - the ASG was just used as an example of his accomplishments...which using at least 1 stat, he was above the cut line.

But the fact that we're quibbling about #5 vs #7 or whatever is irrelevant. Cam had a good season last year. The point being that 2006 wasn't his only shining moment.

[KaniacFever]

Originally Posted by DJHARLEY

Plus about living off the 06 season,(Andy's post) that is where his new contract was probably brought up in negotiations ){SC and MVP} and why he is making so much money. (Sorry but again its just my opinion)

In contract negotiations, the agent not only goes off what that player has accomplished, but also they do a comparable from other players in the league.

When that contract was signed (2009), it was comparable to the contract that Ryan Miller signed in 2008.

Miller: 5 years, $6.25M per, for a total of $31.5M
Ward: 6 years, avg $6.3M per, for a total of $37.8M

Both guys have been pretty comparable as far as sv % goes as well.

Ward also has a Conn Smythe and Stanley Cup to his name. Miller has what exactly?

Cam Ward isn't really overpaid, he's right in the market in where he should be compared to other goalies.

If you want to talk about an overpaid goalie, no need to look any further than one Roberto Luongo

[DJHARLEY]

Ok ,I just looked up Cams career stats--- he has Played 380 regular season games, he won 188, he lost 141 and he also lost 38 games in overtime. which is 188 wins and 179 loses all together. Now I won't say a word as to my opinion will just go by those stats.

As far as his playoff record

05-06---23 games played
15 wins----8 losses

08-09---18 games played
8 wins----10 losses


JUST WINS & LOSES STATS THRU-OUT CAMS CAREER.

[nccanes]

Originally Posted by DJHARLEY

JUST WINS & LOSES STATS THRU-OUT CAMS CAREER.

So that's the way to evaluate a goalie?

If that's your criteria, then the discussion DOES amount to:

Poster A: Cam is not very good aside from his run in 2006
Poster B: I disagree.

End of discussion.